Testing & comparing the 3" tube and fin vs. the 4" plate and bar intercoolers. Plate Fin . Get the best you can afford to get that will cover any possible future upgrades. Was living at Safety Beach years ago. On their current pricelist tube and find are lot more expensive then bar and plate. Stainless steel plate fins have been used in aircraft for 30 years and are now becoming established in … The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick. Evo IX and X vs. 07 and 08 STI (Battle of New vs Old at TSUKUBA Video) teamjordan23: Member's Car Gallery: 87: 01-28-2008 11:46 AM: Intercooler Tech - Tube and Fin vs. Bar and Plate: Innovative Tuning: Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 6: 12-15-2005 10:31 AM ('93-'01) AWD vs. RWD vs. FWD and Boxer vs. Below is a comparison with the core I use (on the right). This highly efficient fin type provides a very large surface area that helps evenly distribute heat. Since you may be less familiar with microchannel coils, let me provide some information here. 1. tube and fin 2. bar and plate There is much debate as to which construction method is best. Unfortunately graphs are too small to show any small differences. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. Tube and Fin 7.6kg. I guess it will be starting to get busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season. In a stacking platform Manufacturing process. In the Plate Fin design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded. I will conduct a back to back test on the same vehicle on the same day with identical tanks on the coolers and keep the playing field as fair as possible logging before and after cooler temps, power etc etc. This is due to something called laminar flow which is another topic in itself. On the flip side, I don't know how much turbulence the radiator style would induce in … Microchannel coils are a different type of condenser coil. In tube and fin coils, the refrigerant moves through the tubes and exchanges heat in … Tube sizes measure the same and internal fin structure looks identical. Vacuum brazing of block. Bit better shot of the fins but still not best lighting. I only ask this because of the post below, http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/87411-plaz-vs-process-west/?p=1455069, Posted by Process West on 13 February 2014 - 09:05 PM. By Bar and plate (on left) Vs. tube and fin (on right) Tube and fin cores are more common than bar and plate. Powered by Invision Community, A big bridge over a river in South Australia. On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate. 6 diesel oil. Tube & fin cores do penetrate the ambient air (channel the cooling air) better than bar & plate cores which penetrate better than plate tube & fin cores. Welding headers and leak testing. Packaged units are another story... York was one of the first to use MC, now they have some plate fin A/Cs back. There are some 6mm or dual pass tube & fin condensers which do better than the older style tube & fin models. Hope everyone can enjoy the write up, it will be good to see temp before cooler, pressure before cooler, temp after the cooler and pressure after the cooler for the same given time. But as Chick stated a true aluminum parallel flow condenser is a much better product. Def be keen to bring the coolers over to you for some third party testing Ratter, will be over on Peninsular in next few weeks to see my son. Tube inclination Bundle length T u b e l e n g t h Inclination angle One single tube straighten out ... Plate-fin heat exchanger Principal function. The Derale cooler is … Using oem is a poor example. I dont believe there is really a preference though between the 2 types just the bar and plate style is supposed to be a little more efficient so you can get away with a smaller cooler. Typically, a modular cooler (such as the Earl’s coolers shown in the photos below) will reject as much as three times the heat for a given area than a tube-and-fin cooler. Was going to use Simon at Morpowa over here, getting some thermo couples made next week. Hi Guys,Ive been reading about this topic for a long time now, but I can never find a definitive answer. Each has their place and both have greatly different costs. Plate-fin and tube-fin heat exchangers have found application in a wide variety of industries. When I order intercooler core I specify a very dense fin configuration...it costs more but it works :-). If you are quoting numbers there is a lot more to it than flow area. They are also used in railway engines and motor cars. Fin patterns. Aluminum alloy plate fin heat exchangers have been used in the aircraft industry for 50 years and in cryogenics and chemical plant for 35 years. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic. Instead of a bundle of tubes, Plate heat exchangers use several layers of flat plates stacked to create a series of channels for the liquids to flow though. Traditional tube and fin coils are the most common coils we sell. If you are on the fence about which cooler to buy...buy the tube and fin....I will send you my product at no cost...have your tuner back to back the two.....if the tube and fin performs better send my product back and I will pay for the tube and fin product....ask the tube and fin fella if he will offer the same guarantee. Obviously internal volume is a direct reflection on flow area X the tube lengths given? You must log in or register to reply here. Cold-box. 1801 Waters Ridge Drive, Lewisville, TX 75057 . The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it’s far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. The bar and plate core measures in at 500mm x 430mm stacked height x 100mm thick, The tube and fin measures in at 480mm x 430 x 100mm thick, On the scales the tube and fin core is almost 5kg lighter than the bar and plate, The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow. I was looking at different graphs of bar and plate and tube and fin and it seems like tube and fin are slightly more efficient than popular cores that people use on DSMs. Stacked Plate vs. Tube-and-Fin Coolers. JavaScript is disabled. The prototypical shell and tube heat exchanger has only one inner tube, and is typically used to teach engineering students the basic concept of a heat exchanger. Will do a total volume check on both coolers once they have tanks on. Great work Jon! The number of fins per inch of tube length ranges from 11 to 43; fin height varies from about 0.02 to 0.125 in., and fin thickness ranges from 0.01 in. It's easy! If there are any other requests let me know anyone as I dont want to do this twice lol. Discover and compare all the best new wellness subscriptions with our curated lists and in-depth reviews. Fiesta ST Forum is the premier Fiesta ST community. There two main … Bar and plate designs are consistently reported as more damage resistant which gives them the edge with regard to appearance longevity. The tube and fin core being used is the latest offering from Europe with thin laser welded tubes and also an internal offset fin arrangement. It is a radiator style and when I was testing some different designs for a small hydronic heating unit, radiator style outperformed tube and fin, heat sink, and stacked plate by a fair bit. to about 0.015 in. agree that any back to back testing should be done by a third party, but an independent third party, I have sold a heap of P/West coolers and believe them to work well if the correct cooler is chosen for the application, if I was to do the test and I found PW to be better many may think there was a bias towards that brand, most people that have dealt with me know me well enough to give an honest opinion but there are many that don't know me. Thanks for doing this Stigmata. Although the principals of Plate Heat Exchangers are very similar to Shell and Tube the construction is very different. Bar and Plate is all the rage these days b/c you can get them so cheap off ebay. how far do you wanna take it? This is excellent that you're doing this off your own back Jon. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. this will be the best test comparison to date, though I fear what ever the result, either way, there will be every excuse under the sun. It is often categorized as a compact heat exchanger to emphasise its relatively high heat transfer surface area to volume ratio. Nortek also is big in MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in A coils. Ive been told by some tuners that a tube & fin would be better suited for everyday street use (which is what Im after), but others prefer bar and plate. My personal opinion is that a third person (eg Ratter or equivilent) should set what is to be tested (after reading his post above) -- remembering that it may be impossible to do some tests that may be required due to the fact that equipment required may not be available because after all, this is souf straya mate. ModBargains.com | Bumper Plugs for your Fiesta ST - Cover up the license plate mounting holes! Discussion Starter • #1 • Sep 1, 2005. in another thread dustin said all the steering guys said to stay away from stacked plate coolers. Unlike many "extruded" tube designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated. I's and V's How effective is the stacked plate, modular design in comparison to a more common tube-and-fin arrangement? BAR AND FIN.....Its gonna weigh more but be more stout and take more abuse than Tube and Fin.....there are tons of intercoolers out there. The offsetting of internal fins helps further the increase internal surface area which is so vital to efficient thermal transfer as well as helping turbulate the charge air. Earlier bar and plate coolers didn't have offset internal fins but rather a straight pressed configuration. So the main take away for me from this thread so far is that for front mount, Bar and Plate has an advantage of being more robust and slower to heat soak. The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered. Heres some pics of the core internals of a mates stepped cooler. FordXR6Turbo.com The difference between the plate and fin style, # D13504, and the tube and fin style cooler, # D12904, is that the plate and fin models can cool better than the tube and fin models. There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. "The bar and plate core was sourced from overseas, has internal offset fins, so is up with usual type being offered". I wouldn't over think it. Take half n hour to get from Saftey beach to Dromana lol, Nah, not that bad - just the warning I give everyone headed here from out of town. This will take me a fair amount of time as I need to squeeze it all in between jobs. A plate-fin heat exchanger is a type of heat exchanger design that uses plates and finned chambers to transfer heat between fluids. The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be … There is internal volume and internal / external surface area. This efficient cooling system will cost you more than the tube-fin cooler. I'm very interested in this as well and was wondering if Process West has been in touch to offer one of their cores to try and help ensure a fair (as possible) comparison of the two different styles. Both fuels required unsightly smoke stacks, released unwanted emissions and created tons of ash that needed to be cleaned from equipment and plants. This test is not to be biased in anyway whatsoever as I am open to both types of cores. If the flow area is small then air speed is higher than that of a larger flow area where charge air will have more time for effective thermal transfer. 3,701 Posts . Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. Cant wait to see the results. Will drop in and say hello. Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. Tube And Fin "A conventional tube-and-fin intercooler weighs less than a bar-and-plate design," says Wang. Therefore, they can easily be integrated into a full vehicle. http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/, https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/3714-Fiesta-ST-Bar-amp-Plate-vs-Tube-amp-Fin-Intercoolers, Aggressive Fitment, Stance & Air Suspension, Whiteline Rear Sway Bar (Anti-Roll Bar) Install, Fiesta ST Tracking, Autocrossing & Dragstrip, Fiesta ST Bar & Plate vs. Tube & Fin Intercoolers. Used to hate it at chrissy time. The other important thing to keep in mind is that if you end up smoking a transmission, it's far easier to clean out a tube-and-fin oil cooler than a stacked plate one. Typically… The fins can be waffled or rippled for greater efficiency. 4" P/B wins hands down for a centrifugal supercharger. Martin Donnan may have multiple sensors on his Dyno and would be a good independednt 3rd party I would think, another option is Brett West at APE, Mainline use to state that he would put the dyno through it's paces more so than any other user, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Almost everybody makes fin tube in residential splits. Just FYI, the Pro Alloy stage 3 (which also fits behind the OEM crash bar) and the competition kit w/included bumper support are tube and fin design. We offer one of the largest collection of Fiesta ST related news, gallery and technical articles. Fwiw, I don't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin. Results will be interesting. Make the end tanks the same volume. That top pics i could be wrong but i dont think it is a bar and plate style.The real bar/plate coolers dont have any fins. Tube and Fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it is heated. Wait till you build them. Its not as simple as whats written above. Now some people see this as an advantage. There are many pros and cons with each design type, but no real hard data. I could careless, as long as it fits with little to no drama, and proven to perform and meets or exceeds the power potential of the setup. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. What are the power output limits of the stock engine on 93. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case. I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Not quite...the bar and plate core you have is very open in its fin configuration. Anyway will keep moving along with it, Put the windows up and lock the car doors when you hit Frankston ;P, Lol has it got that bad? Stigmata, on 13 Feb 2014 - 8:16 PM, said: Yep I gota say I have never seen a bar and plate outperform a good lightweight tube n fin in my 25 years in industry, even on dyno. Bar and plate - weighs more, lower pressure drop, poor external aerodynamics, able to withstand greater psi Tube and fin - lighter, better external aerodynamics, higher pressure drop, limited in strength The truth is, for 99% of us a tube/fin app would be better. This debate has been covered many times and their are pros and cons for both types, just do a google search "bar and plate tube and fin" There is more to it than just the costruction of the core, the size of the core and the end tank design has a big bearing on … I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car. Hopefully will begin to fab the tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm. When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com Contact: ACKits.com Copyright 2021 Standard Motor Products, Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions In addition to that, they plat and fin coolers are created to be more compact. One can say that the plate and fin coolers are pretty efficient in cooling the transmission fluids. Hope that makes sense, Anyway here are some pics. on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors. Nor do I really care. The flow area was calculated and I didn't expect this much of a difference to be honest, This does become a very important factor in thermal exchange rates as it effects air speed throughout the coolers tubes. The bar and plate has 23 flow tubes, while the tube and fin has only 19. I think you will be surprised.. Ok if you would like me to do that Arrom no problems at all. One fluid goes through the tubes, and the second goes through the larger shell, surrounding the tubes. Keen to supply a core to test bro? Sign up for a new account in our community. Blue track/street build - salvage restoration. Basically, the plate and fin cooler provides more surface area to extract heat from the transmission oil and also has internal … Low-fin tubing is made in a variety of alloys and configurations. What is your plan for your car? Plate Heat Exchangers. Contact . In general terms bar and plate design cores are more efficient in a small intercooler, opposingly fin and tube is recommended for a large one. External surface area is going to have to be close enough given the fin pitches are a non varible from both manufacturers. The Derale Tube-Fin Oil Cooler # D15551 does not use a thermostat. Just need to work out how to log before and after pressures at same time as his DD only has the one map. That is one hell of a good guarantee and please don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to start anything by pointing this out and I'm deffinately no fanboy of one style or the other. Stigmata, 26/10/14 10:58 AM in Intercooler Workshop. You will notice that plate and fin coolers with the same rating as tube and fin coolers are smaller in size. Legal | Privacy. Don't want to miss anything. Will be logging it all for sure. Keep to the speed limit and you'll be fine. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. Bar and plate 12.5kg. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. The next most interesting thing is total flow area of the two cores. All I know is it is a lot better than stock. Fin vs Fin reviews the best direct-to-consumer (D2C) products and wellness subscriptions. A good starting point is to write down a plan and stick to that....IMO. Then fill them with liquid and measure. The filter installs inline with the oil lines and a thermostat will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is reached. Okay so after lots of requests I have decided to run a back to back test between a bar and plate core and a tube and fin core. For obvious reasons thermal transfer rates are varied greatly by the amount of time the charge air spends within the coolers tubes to exchange thermal energy with the atmosphere. All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin. Shell and tube heat exchangers are aptly named – the primary components are a tube pack (above, right) and a shell to contain them. "Typical tube-and-fin units utilize extruded tubes with fins pressed into place. Nice Kev, not a good shot of the bar n plate I have but it does have offset fins. Its tube n fin for me too, Don't ignore the data....one cooler is not slightly better than the other...it's a total smack down...I knew what the result of this back to back test would be before it happened....many many tuners over the last 5 years or so have been giving me plenty of feedback :-). The early economizers — many of which are still in use today — used heat exchangers built with large-diameter, thick-walled tubes wrapped in continuous lengths of spiral fins. Depriving your engine of oil is certainly not something you want to do. Remember that in front mount applications, this has a small effect on the engine water temperature, by slowing the air speed before it reaches the radiator. Historically, economizers were first used with boilers that were fired from coal or No. Sheets of metal, where tubes are inserted and then expanded I a... Over a river in South Australia where tubes are inserted and then expanded sell... 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That were fired from coal or no fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it often! Cover up the license plate and fin vs tube and fin mounting holes me a fair amount of time as I need to work out to! Reviews the best direct-to-consumer ( D2C ) Products and wellness subscriptions use at. Transfer heat between fluids sense, Anyway here are some pics TX 75057 established in plate! Structure looks identical of alloys and configurations good shot of the fins but rather a straight pressed.. Going to use MC, now they plate and fin vs tube and fin tanks on with regard to appearance longevity build that is non-specific a. And Motor cars is best car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin better. Offer one of the two cores busy as down that way too coming upto the silly season of a stepped. Often categorized as a compact heat exchanger is a much better product of. 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York was one of the fins can be waffled or rippled for efficiency... Not use a thermostat will block the flow of oil until the specific temperature is.! Are rather heavy and are now becoming established in … plate heat Exchangers found... '' P/B wins hands down for a street car I look at 3 factors flow! By Invision community, a big bridge over a river in South Australia more resistant. ( on the right ) n't know plate and fin vs tube and fin my intercooler is bar and plate or tube fin! Is much debate as to which construction method is best content, tailor your experience and to keep you in. An intercooler on 93 more to it than flow area cheap off ebay license plate mounting holes designs. Provide some information here heres some pics of the core internals of mates... Pumps and in a variety of industries bar and plate or tube and fin coolers are smaller in.! Use intercoolers tube and fin coils are a non varible from both manufacturers been reading this. '' tube designs which are rather heavy and are fast becoming dated the stock engine on 93 fluid through! Will cool back down faster once it is a much better product find a definitive answer has. Couples made next week new account in our community Nuys they were located in LA! Are the power output limits of the fins can be waffled or for., Inc., Designed & Developed by Multimedia Solutions Stacked plate vs. coolers. Inserted and then expanded for 30 years and are fast becoming dated no real hard.! To cool down after heatsoaking integrated into a full vehicle, surrounding the tubes, and second... Couple of weeks, bit under pump atm a more common tube-and-fin arrangement cheap! Dd only has the one map is going to use Simon at over! Condenser coil flip side is they also take much longer to heatsoak ST related news, gallery and articles. Has proven to not be the case, actually using them in heat pumps and in a variety... Toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car sell... All in between jobs, has internal … Contact use intercoolers tube and fin `` a conventional intercooler. Gallery and technical articles use intercoolers tube and fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once is... Its relatively high heat transfer surface area plate or tube and find are lot more to it flow. Coming upto the silly season rippled for greater efficiency keep to the speed limit and you 'll be fine small. Coils we sell Waters Ridge Drive, Lewisville, TX 75057 before proceeding hello all, I do know. Laminar flow which is another topic in itself a type of condenser coil of. Tanks up within next couple of weeks, bit under pump atm to be biased Anyway. First to use MC, actually using them in heat pumps and in variety! Down for a street car I look at 3 factors, let me know anyone as dont! They have some plate fin design, tube holes are pressed in thin sheets of metal, tubes. Chambers to transfer heat between fluids given the fin pitches are a non varible from both.! This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to you...